IamA Catalonian citizen who went to vote yesterday at the referendum AMA!

Could you explain a bit about why you guys want to be separated from Spain?

Sorry kinda oblivious from what happened until I saw the reddit posts.

Some have historical claims, the crown of Aragon (wich Catalonia was a part of) and Castilia (former Spain as we usually name it) were united back in 1469 and since then cultural differences always had a part on nationalistic claims.

More recently since the instauration of the parlamentary monarchy (after franco) the spanish territory was split into "comunidades autonomas) which everyone of them has different autonomic competences, Basque Country had more economic privileges than Catalonia and that inspired some turmoil within the population

Back in 2006 the spain government destroyed "the estatut" wich was a sort of declaration of competences by the Generalitat, that was a big mistake since "the estatut" didnt infringe any known law and even was similar as other bills in vigor by other "comunidades autonomas"

Years of political immobility by central government and impoverishment of the general population made that independentist and nationalist parties gain support within the "non-political people"

As for me I am not independentist but I am for democracy, and the measures PP (governing party) took in Catalonia are unacceptable.

(excuse my english, if you have any more question or want a clarification please do)

Just a detail, Aragon and Castilla were NOT united in 1469. They only shared kings, but remained separate entities.

The final union was a couple of centuries later, and by means of violence.

thanks for the addition, I was at work and didnt have it very fresh

also I will extend my explanation later, now I will be afk for a bit

Your statement reads like a political party talking point list.

But I voted no, I just explained different positions

I am a Spaniard. From Madrid, so you can imagine my views on this matter. I was just passing by to thank your for being so moderate and sensible in your comments. That's all I wanted to see yesterday. Whether you vote yes or no, the kind of sensibility you are showing in your answers is what we all need (independentists and not). Thank you, if I am honest I was expecting some sort of radical answers here, but I have been pleasantly surprised and I wanted to thank you for that.

Now the question: as a catalonian, where do you think your leaders are headed now in terms of negotiations with the central government? What are your views on the future of Catalonia in the near future?

All the best fellow citizen.

I am a Spaniard. From Madrid, so you can imagine my views on this matter. I was just passing by to thank your for being so moderate and sensible in your comments. That's all I wanted to see yesterday. Whether you vote yes or no, the kind of sensibility you are showing in your answers is what we all need (independentists and not). Thank you, if I am honest I was expecting some sort of radical answers here, but I have been pleasantly surprised and I wanted to thank you for that.

This. As a fellow Spaniard against Catalonian independence myself, I got into this thread expecting a radical view on the issue and fallacies left and right, and found a moderate rational person, with a very understanding view of both sides. This is the kind of people we need in this country.

wow im blushing

Thank you for your words, love Madrid, I go twice every year.

As for your question, Puigdemont & friends might use the bad response of the government to push a negotiation leaning on the words of EU (excessive use of force and so on) they might try to establish the DUI but I think that will be most unreasonable.

My views on the near future is of unrest and increase on independent backing, I wish they sit to talk but it seems so unlikely

One of the things that surprises me the most is how biased big part of the Spanish media is. I did read things like "Unacceptable aggressions from the catalans to the national police", "Separatists spread out fake pictures about injured in the media", "Catalan police colluding with separatists", etc. instead of what the rest of the media in the world showed. If Spanish people only feeds from these media, I can understand that you think that Catalans pro-Independence are radicals and uneducated people that will jump to your throat if your name is "Garcia". But believe me, this is a very civic and peaceful movement. Unfortunately, nowadays, everybody with a political opinion will get insulted, threatened or worse in the social media by a minority of assholes that feel safe hiding behind their computer, no matter what side of the political spectrum they are.

So, my point, don't be surprised about "moderation", most of us Catalans are.

polarization is an absolute cancer, I find very healthy to turn off the TV

what do Catalonian participants think is going to happen next?

Well the Generalitat (catalonia government) has as next step to execute the DUI (unilateral independence declaration) as it was stated if the referendum ended with a YES majority

The Spain Government could execute the article 155 of the constitution which would render la Generalitat without power

I doubt they both will do anything of that, if both governments have a bit of political wisdom they might start negotiations in the following weeks if not we might be in for some tumultuous days

As for now there are general strikes convoked for tomorrow.

How are your thoughts on the national police after the way they acted to the voters yesterday?

Horrible, but I will take the opportunity to explain something.

Some years ago I was protesting against the increase of university prices in Barcelona and the "mossos de esquadra" (catalonian police force) charged at us unprovoked and injured a lot of people

By this im not taking heat off the national police actions, they had absolutely no place in a first world country but I dont like the narrative of "look at these bad spanish dudes" when some years ago I was being beaten by Catalonian policemen.

We cant forget that they were sent with aggresion in mind, the spanish government (Partido Popular, the remains of the franco party, but this is a discussion for another day) knew they would strike people, with this I want to say, those policement were given orders, and they abide them

Thank you for your answer. My sympathy goes to all the people demonstating for independence.

thank you, it means a lot

What is the rational behind a separation which would immediately remove Catalonia from the EU and it would be a small country without any diplomatic links ?

Now that is a hard question.

While some independentist have economic reasonings behind them (wich Im not sure they are quite right) the majority of nationalistic spirit comes from cultural heritage and rejection of the idea of Spain.

As for being outside the EU they (us? I dont know) allegedly have a plan to become a member after the separation (wich I dont know how will they do it with Spanish veto but wtv)

Also last actions taken by the spanish government puts Spain in a bad position infront of the EU so the discussion of the relationship of a theoretically catalonian republic is kinda a bogus point right now

But good question! I might complete my answer later

This is one of the threatening points used against us the Scots, vote for independence and you’ll be out of the EU, ironically we are being dragged out of the EU, against our wishes, anyway.

Peace.

Better together, until we are together then it's better apart.

Sounds almost like my marriage.

:(

As a Spaniard from southern Spain (heritage from basque Country, Galicia and Catalonia) I don't believe in the Catalonian Independence whatsoever. The claims for independence imo are simply not there, the claims for reform, absolutely there. Our conservative party has basically ruined any possibility of dialogue and diplomacy with the Catalonian government by sabotaging any attempt of reform. That has been a huge push towards independence.

Having said that, I am for the right of the Catalonian people having a say in what they want. It doesn't have to be a binding referendum, but beating the shit out of people who just want to go to a public building to say whether or not they would like to be an independent country... makes me so ashamed! I am so ashamed of our government, I am disgusted, my great grandparents from Barcelona never once in their lives considered themselves Catalonian and not Spanish and if they were alive today to see police officers drag and push elderly people across the street, they would think we were back in the times of Franco.

A lot of people think that voting the subject of independence makes you a 'separatist', not at all! I know so many people that want to vote and say NO.

It is just unfair, the treatment Catalonia is receiving is simply unfair. No reform, no dialogue, not allowed to vote (even if it is a non binding referendum), not allowed to use public institutions to ask what people want. How are we a democracy? The central government keeps finding shelter in the constitution, saying it is anti constitutional. Constitutions have been reformed and changed everywhere, dozens, hundreds of times. The Basque Country has a better economic deal with the central government than Catalonia, why not allow them to have a better deal too?

We were very close to achieving this when we had the PSOE (socialist party) but the conservatives came in and took several steps back in this matter.

Many friends of mine said to me, 'you know what, I had my doubts whether to remain or leave, but after I saw a mother and her two kids be rugby tackled in the middle of a street by police... fuck this. I want out of this'. Whether that is true or not, I don't know, but the sentiment is there.

EDIT: The heritage part is relevant because Basque Country, Galicia and Catalonia are basically the three major states with some to a lot of independence mentality, as well as separate languages etc. My basque family has in the past expressed they are not Spanish, but Basque, yet my Catalonian family never once mentioned not being Spanish and wanting to be independent.

EDIT 2: Vasque country --> Basque country. Sorry for the typo. In Spanish we say, Pais Vasco, I often get this mixed up when I write it down in English.

Thanks! I voted NO, as you said, also I want to take this moment to apologize to all southerners for many of henious and devil things some (a very small minority) of Catalonians say about the south of Spain

I think its time for the democrats to unite, whether they are pro or against independence

Likewise! Here in my town, I hear constant comments of 'A Por Ellos!' (Go Get 'em) being chanted to police officers that went to Catalonia. What the fuck is going on? I saw fascists waving their flags on their way to Barcelona to defend the kingdom and the integrity of our country. What integrity is that? People coming on holiday to the south and being scared of speaking Catalan in public, people going north and being scared of speaking Spanish. We are more divided than ever, there is a huge fascist and repressive cloud over our country right now. in 1978 90% of Catalonians voted for our Constitution, thousands of catalonians and basques were killed fighting against fascism in the civil war, alongside republicans, alongside socialists, alongside those that were for freedom. I don't know where the heck we are going, but we won't go far on our own. That's for sure.

Catalonia deserves a better treatment for sure. I just can't wait until this piece of shit government is replaced.

I find it very hard, I dont know how people keep voting for them

Is it true that the polls before the vote showed that probably the 'no' (as in we don't want independence) was gonna win? If that's the case, wouldn't you say that what the Spanish govt did was particularly stupid?

Not OP but yes and yes. I don't have access to the exact figures right now but I believe they were about 41% yes and 47% no. They were also only expecting around a 40% turnout but estimates place turnout post Spanish response at approximately 60% (though counted votes ended up being around 2.2 million of a 7.5 million population with exact numbers unknown due to polling station closures and ballot box confiscations.

I also believe that regardless of yes / no intention 89% or so of Catalan people want to put the issue to rest via vote.

Essentially they made terrible decisions every step of the way.

Living and working in Barcelona (not a Spanish or Catalan national myself, but with all my friends and family being so) I saw a large amount of people have their vote swayed in the space of a week in response primarily to the behaviour of the Spanish government.

Apologies for the lack of sources (I am at work) if anyone sees anything incorrect please feel free to address it.

EDIT: please see below for extra / more accurate information for u/alvarosv and u/hughie-d

I would answer you but Larrikinlover0 put it perfectly, I suscribe every pointg

If what most of you guys want is to manage your own money and send less taxes to Madrid, why don’t you go for an agreement like the one with the País Vasco autonomous region where they basically can be financially independent from Madrid (things like manage their own money and taxes) without being strictly a independent country? as I understand (by a friend) Catalonia was offered a similar deal 30 years ago but they rejected it.

Because we cant, we tried to have these privileges in 2006 but the government nullified it without proper legal backing, that is one of the points that increased the indepententist lines

Dude I have to say that as an outsider, who lives in BCN.... What was negotiated for those regions is an aberration. It should never have happened and is probably a big driver for this whole mess. You can't have a unified country where everybody acts for themselves. Not attacking you, but just stating my opinion on what I think is unrealistic from catalan nationalists.

Yeah, I agree, its spanish political tradition to make things half-assedly and then deal badly with the consequences

Did you vote yes or no?

I voted No, Im not convinced of the independentist claims and some of the politicians invested in it are plain corrupt, so is the PP (spanish government) though.

I voted as an exercise of democracy and defiance against oppression

Have you seen any voting fraud?

Not personally, but some friends saw members of scc (catalonian civil society) voting "No" several time, mind you that group has ties with neonazis so yeah...

I also saw pictures of a thicc boy voting yes many times, that is what an irregular referendum gives :/

Does thicc stand for something, or are those boys just cute?

the ass was fat

Vape nashe boooiiiii

Hila Kleiners represent

Who do you think stands to profit most from an independent Catalonia? Surely not the common people with all the travel and commerce restrictions that will come with it?

Bourgeoisie, primarily and independentist politicians and friends, I dont see clear advantages on the short or mid term

how do you feel about the low participation? I know that it's because the police stepped in, and I understand that it would likely still have been very far in favor of Yes, but still. Do you think the information gathered in the refendum is enough to base a declaration of independence on? do you think it could lead to unrest in catalonia?

I know that it's because the police stepped in

Not really, the referendum was called quite irregularly, even in relation with the Generalitat norms, so most of the "no" voters just stayed at home because they did not recognize the referendum as valid, as of today if everyone voted I think the NO would win with a low margin.

Do you think the information gathered in the refendum is enough to base a declaration of independence on?

No but I think it serves as a proof that Catalonian people want to have the right of a legal, pacted and supervised referendum with all democratic securities.

do you think it could lead to unrest in catalonia?

Sadly yes, but I think that the unrest comes more of the police repression, catalonian independent movement was characterized (at least until last months) with "seny", "seny" in Catalonian could be translated to "level-headedness" as we (the Catalonians) always acted peacefully and with moderation in mind.

Thanks for your questions!

Fellow spaniard here, im from Galicia and i love Cataluña (im a Barça fan and i've been multiple times to the Pirenees and to Barcelona).

I saw that you voted No on some of the responses you made, and i want to know the opinion you might have regarding some questions, so...

1. Why did you vote instead of staying home?
2. Is it true that the Generalitat has done close to nothing in the last 2/3 years besides from working towards this situation? (Political Parties like C's and PP have said this multiple times)
3. Do you think that making Catalonians vote for a reelection of their regional government would be a possible solution to this conflict?

1-I was not going to vote, but after seeing how the police charged and beat people I decided it was a statement for democracy and defiance against those measures.

2-As far as I know in the last years the Generalitat booked many appointments to discuss the issue and the central government never answered.

3-Yes, if it is done correctly

Thanks for your questions!

I want to visit galicia sometime soon

Hi there. Why would any educated, emancipated and prosperous society chose for its own isolation, as we are all aware that success can be achieved easier and steadier with cooperation in a larger (and of course functional) group. I am aware that Catalunya has good GDP, but is comparable with Madrid's GDP. You have good tourism stats but also great debts, and, lately, you developed some sort of alergy to tourists. In the era of globalisation, you consider that new borders are your best defense...To what? Your biggest partners are Spain's other regions. Do you think that an economic blockade from them may be compensated by international deals? My opinion is that cooperation with Madrid should have continued and I am writing this from the perspective of an atheist globalist, capitalist but waiting the stop of the oil flow, witness of the last days of right nationalistic struggles to maintain a world order in dissolution.

Why can't they do everything you suggested without being part of the Spanish state?

I understand that it's unlikely that Spain would allow them to leave the state and continue to trade freely with the remaining regions, but IMO that's on Spain.

If they are isolated, it will be due to the bloody mindedness of the state they're removing themselves from, and not a completely necessary and unavoidable result of their independence.

Why do independence and co-operation with Spain need to be mutually exclusive?

thanks, I agree with this

Hi there. Why would any educated, emancipated and prosperous society chose for its own isolation, as we are all aware that success can be achieved easier and steadier with cooperation in a larger (and of course functional) group

I dont know, I dont agree with that part of the independentist agenda, it is true though that is not everything about money, for example the generalitat wanted to shelter syrian refugees (as the UE mandated) but the Spanish government PROHIBITED (as of today, spain only sheltered 17% of all the syrian refugees UE called for, among a lot of other things like non functioning public services when they depend of Spain and not the Generalitat.

You have good tourism stats but also great debts, and, lately, you developed some sort of alergy to tourists.

That makes me so sad :( , most of those great debts come from incompetence for the (yes) party that now pushes for independence but is not a structural problem, as for the tourists it's only a violent minority which most people here despise (CUP) think violent antifa.

In the era of globalisation, you consider that new borders are your best defense...To what? Your biggest partners are Spain's other regions. Do you think that an economic blockade from them may be compensated by international deals? My opinion is that cooperation with Madrid should have continued and I am writing this from the perspective of an atheist globalist, capitalist but waiting the stop of the oil flow, witness of the last days of right nationalistic struggles to maintain a world order in dissolution.

I agree with you 100% on that, I dont know what to say about that, mind you I voted "No" but I did vote while policement beat elderly people on other voting colleges :(

thanks for your questions!

Could this lead to ETA-style violence from the more radical / extreme nationalists?

No, ETA spawned from some very specific situation that are not happening right now, Catalonia had a terrorist group (terra-lliure) but thankfully the cultural motherships of catalonian independence always had as essential tennat the non-violence, as it shows on every 11September

thanks for your question

For anyone wondering, September 11th is the National Day of Catalonia. Among other things, it's a big day for demonstrations and calls for independence.

thanks for the addition, I forgot explaining it

Anyone else see a pattern of larger organizations disbanding? Trump and Russia want to disband NATO, there's Brexit, Greece, and now Catalonia. Is Russia planning to divide and conquer the west?

maybe?

Did you get hassled by the police?

No, thankfully, but a few hours after I left the ballot a few citizens were sent to the hospital because the police charged :(

How do you feel about the fact that being independent means you won't be an EU citizen anymore? And the fact that this will make you a potential target to be annexed by a different larger country?

If the Generalitat declares independency I will still be a Spanish citizen as it is stated on Spanish laws that I cant lose it this way, and in consequence I will still be European, I think a transition or double nationality process would be put in place, I hope i knew the specifics though

Looking at how the spanish government has acted the last few days. . Do you think catalonia will be pressing harder for independence?

Yes, I hope they do it wisely

I plan to visit Barcelona as a tourist from Wednesday to Sunday - is it safe?

Edit because ITT people assuming I’m American and sending unhelpful condescending responses: I’m not American and I’m not old enough to have ever witnessed such events in my own city (thankfully) so that’s why I don’t know what to expect and was apprehensive. To those that gave helpful and informative answers about the real state of events, bless you!

Also, TIL people are fairly biased against Americans asking questions, I didn’t know this until I read some of the responses.

Spain is a very safe country, and it still be, enjoy your stay!

If I have one warning is to stay away from demostrations and check your wallet on the metro.

Do you feel let down by the lack of criticism the central government is receiving from other european leaders?

yes, a lot

Do you think that the vote was realistic with only a forty three percent turn out, and do you think another referendum with a hopefully higher turnout is in the works?

I hope that a new referendum with democratic guarantees is on the works yes.

I see yesterday more as a statement of the people that we want to be able to vote, and not as a independence choice

Did you die?

Yes, I will now haunt your fridge eternally

Hello fellow Spaniard (sorry had to rub it in a little), I am from Valencia. First of all let me say that your answers are fairly grounded and unbiased, which I appreciate a lot, thank you very much for keeping composure as I feel international coverage has been very one-sided (yes, the violence was terribly unnecessary, but the press seems to have forgotten that the 'referendum' was illegitimate and ultimately an attempt to rupture Spain - which is very important to keep in mind. Nonetheless violence was unnecessary)

My question goes in line with my last thought. As a supporter of leaving, can you understand how breaking off from the country is massively unfair to the rest of us as we get no say in the matter? I mean, by leaving you are talking away from me, a big (and frankly very important) part of my country, and I am getting no say... is it not understandable that Madrid defends the rest of the Spanish people?

Can you understand that ONLY Cataluña voting on wether they leave is almost as ridiculous as my household deciding we want to be independent, holding a 'referendum' then claiming that because it was 'democratically' decided (within my household) we have the right to leave?

I get you have cultural differences. But frankly all of Spain is different to the rest of Spain. Galician tradition is nothing like Sevillan and neither of those are like Canario, and those are all different to Valencian...

I get in recent years you have had a few "benefits" taken away from you, but you are in no way "picked on" by the central government- in fact for years you were treated especially well to keep Cataluña happy and quiet ... (please correct me if you think I'm wrong on that one)

I know my tone may seem a bit serious , but it's lack of time rather than me being acusative . As I said I really appreciate the way in which you are answering, will be interested to her back from you!

Edit: "quite" to "quiet"

Hey! I agree with you wholeheartly, I think all Spain should have a saying on the matter, that's why I support an agreement born from the central government.

The problem is that im not for the independence so I cant give you good answers to your questions ):

My answers are being very short because I have to go to work soon and I will not be able to answer all sorry about that, hit me on private message if you want a bigger explanation

thanks for your question!

Do you reckon it's safe to say you guys deserve to be separated when just over 42% of the population voted?

No I dont, I think we deserve to vote in proper conditions though

Sup fellow nationalist (Scotland) here.

Do you guys actually think you could manage to function as an independent nation?

Has consideration been made for things like economic policy and social policy / law?

Im not very into that, I doubt it.

Have in mind that this is not a thing of a few months, this has been brewing for decades so I HOPE they have a plan about it

Since, you guys voted to leave Spain, what will the process be to create a new country? Will it be deemed illegal? What if another wave of military act is used against doing so?

Im ignorant about that, you should ask the Generalitat

Will it be deemed illegal?

I dont know how you deem a country illegal

What if another wave of military act is used against doing so?

As in yesterday? people might react violently, I hope not

If Catalonia became i depemdent what rralistic chance would it have of being economically independent?

How can Catalonia survive without Spain's help?

Barcelona (as in the city) has many business and foreign investments, I dont know the specifics tho

Civil War when?

I dont know Marvel didnt say

Pineapple on pizza or no?

No, never

What other futile time-wasting activities do you do on Sundays when there aren't any illegal referendums?

I answer asshats on reddit

do you think voting for this "wall" will solve any issues? why not riot for changing the leaders of the country instead?

We tried, Spain had a quite big movement of renewal of the political climate some years ago that ended with you guessed it, police charges

Podemos was born from that movement and since it entered the congress, while I do not agree with them in many things is something that happened

How does this attempted dissolution compare with the Balkanization of Eastern Europe such as the breakup of Czechoslovakia?

Also, I’ve read that the government overriding certain provisions of the unifying agreement is a large reason for the succession movement, what provisions have the government eliminated?

How does this attempted dissolution compare with the Balkanization of Eastern Europe such as the breakup of Czechoslovakia?

None I think the motives and geopolitical situations are quite different

Also, I’ve read that the government overriding certain provisions of the unifying agreement is a large reason for the succession movement, what provisions have the government eliminated?

Fiscal and law-making benefits within the "comunidad autonoma"

From what I know Spain is a huge catholic country. What is the Church's take on the events?

this is a great question, part of the cleric has always defended the independence of Catalonia, and the bishop of Montserrat made quite a strong statement for the referendum to be as peaceful and effective as possible

thanks for your questions

But isn't the Spanish tax system screwed up? Anyways, I can still smell a Francoist or two in there.

? tell me more about the tax system

?francoist? haha

Is this being treated as legitimate? Is Catalonia now a separate state that just has yet to be recognised by the Spanish government or was it more of a symbolic gesture?

No, for that the unilateral declaration of independence should be stated and I do not see that happening right now

Also Spain wouldnt recognize it

How do you think the move will economically impact the new nation?

Can you re-structure that question please? I dont think I quite understand it :(

Have there been any shooters or murders?

NO! please and I hope there are none in the future.

And old man died yesterday of a stroke, was the cause of it the police charges? maybe I think is quite a stretch and a dangerous point to have

Do Catalonians speak a different language? Are there are other differentiations between Catalonians and other Spaniards?

We speak Catalonian, yes it is different and is also talked in some regions of south of France, it's really easy to speak and understand not so easy to write.

Apart of that there's not too much differences, im closer to a dude with my age born in the same socio economic class in Madrid that to my neighbour probably

What did you last eat before you went to vote? Did it also cross your mind that it might be your last meal?

mushrooms with chicken, peas and carrots, with a side of mashed potatoes, as for the last meal I think it every time, you never know when the stroke may hit